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View Full Version : Symptoms of and info on Chiari...



evergreenmom
04-07-2010, 12:23 AM
I came across this yesterday...thought it was a pretty thorough discussion of possible symptoms for anyone interested in Chiari malformation/ hindbrain herniation/ tonsillar ectopia.

We have been lucky so far that Xander has a diagnosis so we can monitor him as he grows. It is very important to know that you have a chiari and to keep an eye on it as neural problems can occur if it goes unchecked. So far he seems to be without symptom as many young children are. I spent some time reading a support forum of chiari sufferers and it seems many of them never knew they had a chiari until they were 30 or 40 and suddenly started having symptoms- some of them pretty life altering. For now all I can do is educate myself and others regarding this disturbing possible secondary diagnosis of cranio and hope Xander never does have any issues with his 5mm herniation.

Chiari Research Info for doctors

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A study published in the March, 2004 issue of the Journal of the American Academy of Nurse Practitioners has verified what Chiari patients have known for years; namely, that while some symptoms are common to many Chiari sufferers, the malformation also causes an array of symptoms which can vary widely from person to person. Indeed, one of the more common email questions this publication receives is asking whether X, Y, and Z symptoms are related to Chiari.

This plethora of Chiari related symptoms is not only a source of frustration for patients, but it is also a contributing factor to the all too often missed and delayed diagnoses that many patients endure. Both statistical and anecdotal evidence show that many patients go through doctor after doctor, and years of suffering, before being correctly diagnosed. The varied, vague, and sometimes fleeting symptoms can make an early diagnosis difficult. This not only takes an emotional toll on the patient is who being given ineffective treatments, or being told it's all in their head, but some research has shown that the longer someone is symptomatic before treatment, the less chance they have of a good outcome.

In an attempt to help Primary Care Providers (PCPs) diagnose - or at least suspect - Chiari, Dr. Diane Mueller, a Neurosurgery Nurse Practitioner, and neurosurgeon, Dr. John Oro, undertook a study to examine what symptoms patients with MRI verified Chiari first talked about (or to use the medical term, presented). What they found was both encouraging for PCP's making earlier diagnoses and validating for every patient who has a laundry list of symptoms.

In the study, Dr. Mueller analyzed the self-reported symptoms of 265 Chiari patients who ranged in age from 12-78. The group included 221 women and 44 men. The size of the malformations ranged from 3mm-30mm, with most patients falling in the 5mm-10mm range. Thirty-seven patients had syrinxes, although not every patient underwent a full spine MRI. Interestingly, 3 patients had thoracic syrinxes, without the more common cervical syrinx. Also of note is that 3 patients were asymptomatic.

The encouraging part of what the researchers found is that 13 symptoms were reported by more than half the patients, with 98% of them saying they suffered from headaches. While the headache finding is not surprising, Dr. Mueller points out that the way Chiari headaches are usually described by patients is different than standard tension and migraine headaches. Chiari headaches are usually described as starting in the back of the head and sometimes radiating forward to behind the eyes. The pain is described as a feeling of intense pressure, or even explosive in nature, and is brought on or aggravated by straining (Valsalva maneuver), coughing, sneezing, posture, singing, laughing, etc. The study also noted that some patients had modified their lifestyles to avoid situations, such as singing or laughing, which would bring on the headaches.

The validating part of the research - at least from a patient's perspective - is the tremendous variation among symptoms. Forty-nine distinct symptoms were reported by two or more people and 95% of the patients reported 5 or more symptoms. As demonstrated by the extensive list, Chiari can affect many different parts of the body in many different ways. And of course, once the body is compromised for an extended period of time, secondary factors, like depression, come into play.

Symptoms Reported By At Least 50% Of Patients

Symptom-%

Headache-98
Dizziness-84
Difficulty sleeping-72
Weakness in arms/hands-69
Neck pain-67
Numbness/tingling in arm, hand-62
Fatigue-59
Nausea-58
Shortness of breath-57
Blurred Vision-57
Tinnitus-56
Difficulty swallowing-54
Leg weakness-52

Symptoms Reported By Less Than 50% Of Patients

(20%-50%) - depression, body weakness, balance problem, memory problems, leg/foot numbness, hoarse voice, chest pain, facial numbness, anxiety, slurred speech, arm pain, abdominal pain, photo-phobia

(<20%) - tachycardia, trouble hearing, vomiting, double vision, word-finding problems, vision loss, blackouts, apnea(night), vertigo, loss of peripheral vision, nystagmus, earache, nosebleeds, snoring, thoracic pain, hypo-tension, wake up choking, leg pain, palpitations, hypertension, abnormal gag reflex, facial pain/tingling
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Jenny
04-07-2010, 12:02 PM
Thats a good list of the symptoms!

My DH has chairi I.. we just found out last year.. he started having symptoms over ten years ago, after an auto accident. He's being treated with meds for now.

Stress is also a big flare up causer. He is definately worse when he is stressed out! Also his doctor said certain foods, alot that are high in fat or caffiene, also make it worse.

Momof2Boys
04-07-2010, 12:19 PM
Thank you for the information. I wonder about this with Justin but the nurse at the neurologist said his last MRI did not show Chiari. Do they need to do a certain type of MRI or actually be looking for this?

evergreenmom
04-07-2010, 02:00 PM
Thank you for the information. I wonder about this with Justin but the nurse at the neurologist said his last MRI did not show Chiari. Do they need to do a certain type of MRI or actually be looking for this?

Jamie-

I don't for sure know the answer, but I believe if they do a Brain MRI they should be able to see it. I think it is also possible to have a very small herniation that is not considered a "chiari"- less than 5mm I believe. I also know that the cerebellum itself is part of this so if you have a crowded cerebellum perhaps some of the same symptoms could occur. Does Justin gag a lot or have trouble swallowing? That is a big sign from what I understand. When do you see the doctor again- I would have him show you the brain scan and ask him if Justin's cerebellum has enough room. We saw Xander's scan from 2 days before surgery side by side with his scan from one year post op- the difference was remarkable- before surgery his cerebellum actually looked squished and now it appears to have plenty of room. I guess the question is did Justin's surgery make "enough" room back there?

I am only just starting to learn more about all of this. Xander's doctors feel his chiari is not a problem for him at this time and they tell me it may never be a problem. I am very much hoping they are right, but I feel it is serious and I should be prepared and know as much as possible about it just in case.

Jenny-

I knew your DH had chiari, but I didn't know it had started with an accident. Did he know at the time of the accident that there had been brain trauma? Was the chiari caused by swelling to the brain? I hope his meds are helping him. I read that the surgery is very invasive( long painful recovery) and for some people symptoms are not even relieved post op.

Like I said I have been lurking( oh my!) around chiari support sites looking for info- it seems you are either born with a chiari or often some sort of trauma or damage occurs. In the case of cranio it is more likely a case of damage from closed sutures than an actual birth defect. Dr Fearon told me chiari is much more prevalent in cranio kids than in the general population. For some reason that I have not yet figured out many doctors don't give this condition much credence (maybe the stress factor Jenny was talking about). I saw on the support forums many cases in which the patient went from doc to doc looking for help- had a brain MRI which showed chiari and the doc's didn't even tell them this could be the cause of their symptoms!!! Many of these people only found out because they asked for the radiology report or in some cases read about chiari online and went to a known chiari specialist (as opposed to just any neurologist/ neurosurgeon) who told them they have it!!! I read this with chills running down my spine- so grateful Dr Fearon diagnosed Xander's chiari so at least we know what we are dealing with if symptoms do occur.

It reminds me so much of cranio and how a lot of us were told our babies head would round out.... "don't worry it's just a little plagiocephaly"... You really have to be informed and act as your own health advocate in this world. Just a head's up on this- don't mean to terrify you all- chiari is uncommon- just thought we should all be aware of the correlation, and know the symptoms just in case.

Momof2Boys
04-07-2010, 07:53 PM
Justin does have trouble swallowing, I have to cut his chicken nuggets up into 4 pieces so he doesn't gag. Plus he had this whole gagging episode at the hospital last month as he was being discharge. It looked like he couldn't breathe but all his vitals where good. It took him over an hour before he was able to throw up and he was fine. I am not sure if the swallowing issue is more of low muscle tone since he doesn't chew up his food either.
He goes back to the neurologist and NS in July. I will ask about a copy of his MRI. I know the doctors tend not to tell you everything. I remember seeing these shadows on the right side of his skull from his CT. I later found out after his surgery that the brain was thinning his skull. I am just trying to gather as much info to figure out what is really going on with Justin. Thank you again for all your information.

Jenny
04-08-2010, 02:18 AM
Very little is known about Chiari. Most doctors are very uneducated about it, and can't agree on its conditions. There is a specific MRI that should be done, BUT it can be seen on a regular one as well. In my husband's case, they actually caught it on a CT scan because he was complaining about migraine headaches. He never put it together that they started after his accident. Because they suspected Chiari with the CT, our PCP then had him have a MRI with contrast, and that confirmed it. What you really want though is an MRI with CINE flow. The size of chiari actually does not determine the symptoms, but the amount of cerebral spinal fluid that passes throw does. IF the fluid can't flow, then thats when symptoms occur. Of course other symptoms occur with a bigger herniation because of the compression as well, and thats where pain comes in.

For my dh, they didn't realize there was any trauma with his accident. He just lived life thinking he had migraines. Recently they had gotten really bad and he had a lot of stress at work, so he finally broke down and went to our dr. We are very lucky in that we have a wonderful PCP. He at least knew what Chiari was, but even still is not very educated in it.
You will find that the majority of dr's do not know what they are talking about, even nuerologists. You just have to keep pushing for answers until you're comfortable.
We almost opted for surgery. We were doing the meds and he wasnt getting much relief, but then he ahd a job change at work whch took a whole lot of stress off, and he's been doing better.. still has the pain, but not nearly as bad.
For him, his main complaint is headaches. He also has neck pain, and numbness and pain in his left arm. He also has RLS.

fullhouse3b2g
04-08-2010, 09:32 AM
Thanks for posting this.

Isaac has chiari. He also has a huge cyst that displaces his whole cerebellum. A lot of the symptoms from each condition are the same so it'a hard to tell which symptoms he has from which condition.

When he was having some major symptoms, we had to take him to the ER. They did an MRI there. The ER doctor came into our room and told us there was "absolutely NOTHING wrong with your son's brain!" He said that they especially looked in the cerebellum because with all the symptoms that my son had it would suggest something being wrong in the cerebellum. He went on to tell us that "Isaac's cerebellum couldn't be more perfect!".

We got a copy of those same MRI's and took them to Isaac's NS who took one look at them and diagnosed the cyst and chiari. It just goes to show that not all doctors are knowlegeable even if they're specifically looking for problems in that area. After seeing the films myself I find it hard to believe that that ER doc didn't see anything wrong. It's really obvious to even an unknowledgable parent that there's something going on in the back of his head on those films.

See what I mean?

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg58/fullhouse3b2g/100_7175-1-1.jpg

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg58/fullhouse3b2g/100_7176-1-1.jpg

Janet
04-08-2010, 12:26 PM
When he was having some major symptoms, we had to take him to the ER. They did an MRI there. The ER doctor came into our room and told us there was "absolutely NOTHING wrong with your son's brain!" He said that they especially looked in the cerebellum because with all the symptoms that my son had it would suggest something being wrong in the cerebellum. He went on to tell us that "Isaac's cerebellum couldn't be more perfect!".

We got a copy of those same MRI's and took them to Isaac's NS who took one look at them and diagnosed the cyst and chiari. It just goes to show that not all doctors are knowlegeable even if they're specifically looking for problems in that area. After seeing the films myself I find it hard to believe that that ER doc didn't see anything wrong. It's really obvious to even an unknowledgable parent that there's something going on in the back of his head on those films.




Leigh did you ever contact that doctor or the hospital?

fullhouse3b2g
04-08-2010, 02:07 PM
Janet~ I was never able to contact that ER doctor again (that's probably a good thing too LOL), but I was able to talk to some other doctors at the same ER after Isaac's first surgery. I think they were able to see how distraught I was that the doctor had "missed" something that big. I encouraged them to PLEASE take this stuff seriously for kids like Isaac!

Momof2Boys
04-08-2010, 02:11 PM
Wow, it is amazing how us parents have to double check these doctors. We pay them all this money and yet get no answers or even the wrong answer. FRUSTRATING!!!

evergreenmom
04-08-2010, 02:38 PM
I encouraged them to PLEASE take this stuff seriously for kids like Isaac!

I can't believe these people have advanced degrees and are walking around "treating" people!!! Anti- treatment is more like it....I am a Mom and I can see there is a problem in that picture you posted!!! Holy Cow!!!!!!

I am so sorry for all of the heartache you have been through with Isaac- he is a lucky little boy to have such a wonderful Mom who kept pushing for answers 'til she found them!

nancy
04-08-2010, 07:46 PM
This is soooo timely! thank you for posting this! My husband and I are compiling information to take to our pediatritian tomorrow to convince him that we need to see a neurologist before Noah's MRI so that anything and everything possible can be done while he's under. My pediatrician thinks we are hyper worriers. Both my kids gag and choke galore. I will be printing some of this out to take with us. Thanks again!

Janet
04-08-2010, 07:57 PM
Janet~ I was never able to contact that ER doctor again (that's probably a good thing too LOL), but I was able to talk to some other doctors at the same ER after Isaac's first surgery. I think they were able to see how distraught I was that the doctor had "missed" something that big. I encouraged them to PLEASE take this stuff seriously for kids like Isaac!

I know how much you have gone through with Isaac, I'm sorry that this doctor was not educated on Chiari...just as many don't really know about cranio.

mommyjamieof2
05-04-2010, 08:00 PM
What about the cough headaches? Do any of your kids experience this? Gage has a cough that started last summer and was classified as chronic it lasted for close to 6 months it has since settled down but he still coughs through out the day it's just not constant anymore. We tried everything from allergy, asthma, acid treatments and were also told maybe a tic. He never responded to any of the treatments. I am wondering if this is the cause. Today he told me it hurts his brain when he coughs so I decided to look up the chiari and cough and it came up with cough headaches.

Primary cough headaches tend to occur in limited episodes and eventually improve on their own, often within two months to two years. Secondary cough headaches sometimes require surgery to correct the underlying problem.

Symptoms

Cough headaches:

Strike suddenly with and just after coughing or other types of straining
Typically last a few seconds to a few minutes — some can last up to 30 minutes
Cause sharp, stabbing or splitting pain
Usually affect both sides of your head and the back of your skull
Can be followed by a dull, aching pain for several hours

Causes

What causes primary cough headaches isn't known. Some researchers suspect that increased pressure in the head (intracranial pressure) during coughing or other types of straining may play a role.



https://www.bcbsri.com/BCBSRIWeb/health_wellness/DiseasesConditions/AllDiseasesConditions/Coughheadaches_DS00639.jsp